Discussion:
The Serbian experience
(too old to reply)
sasha
2007-03-29 11:05:12 UTC
Permalink
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our website www.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
ocelot
2007-03-29 12:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by sasha
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our websitewww.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
what is the worst thing that you have encountered in Serbia ?
Gerald Oliver Swift
2007-03-29 13:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by sasha
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our website www.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
Your website looks very good - good luck with your new venture. Certainly
makes a refreshing change from all the usual overseas walking destinations.

I was in Serbia and Montenegro last October. Had a fantastic time in both
countries. Really friendly people.

Hope your venture does really well.

Kindest regards
Gerry
Markku Grönroos
2007-03-29 13:40:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald Oliver Swift
I was in Serbia and Montenegro last October. Had a fantastic time in both
countries. Really friendly people.
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Lars
2007-03-29 22:39:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.

I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.

Nice website though. What are those "blinking lights" in the foresty
hill? Snipers?


Lars
Stockholm
Gregory Morrow
2007-03-29 23:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.
I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.
Nice website though. What are those "blinking lights" in the foresty
hill? Snipers?
One thing that you have to understand about the inhabitants of the Balkans
is that they are mostly backwards, stupid, and uncivlised, e.g. they are
akin to US hillbillies or rednecks (and they share a criminal mentality with
their cousins the Russians). The exception are the Slovenes, who have a
mentality more attuned to that of Central/Western Europe; they have no
moronic millenia - old ethnic - religious grudge matches going on with
anybody. That's why Slovenia is a pleasant and modern place, a real credit
to the EU, and also a nice touristic destination...
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
2007-03-29 23:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.
It's still shocking to me that this happened in 1990's Europe...
Post by Lars
I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.
Yes, about as pleasant as visiting Nazi Germany, Al Capone's 1930's Chicago,
or Hoxha's Albania...the Serbs are a *real* bunch of goonish thugs!
Post by Lars
Nice website though. What are those "blinking lights" in the foresty
hill? Snipers?
Lol...
--
Best
Greg
Runge1
2007-03-30 05:39:23 UTC
Permalink
morrow in Serbia !!!!
Lol
Post by Markku Grönroos
Post by Lars
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their
neighbours.
Post by Lars
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.
It's still shocking to me that this happened in 1990's Europe...
Post by Lars
I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.
Yes, about as pleasant as visiting Nazi Germany, Al Capone's 1930's Chicago,
or Hoxha's Albania...the Serbs are a *real* bunch of goonish thugs!
Post by Lars
Nice website though. What are those "blinking lights" in the foresty
hill? Snipers?
Lol...
--
Best
Greg
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-03-30 13:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.
I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Gregory Morrow
2007-03-30 19:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Lars
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:40:29 +0300, Markku Grönroos
Post by Markku Grönroos
Absolutely. They just have this nasty habit to mass murder their neighbours.
Exactly! And then denying the whole affair, even though there is lots
of evidence, and many witnesses.
I can not imagine a European country I would be less likely to visit.
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
They are also generally sexist arseholes and are about as homophobic as can
be...
--
Best
Greg
Lars
2007-03-30 20:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.


Lars
Stockholm
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-03-30 20:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Gregory Morrow
2007-03-30 20:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
Even Finland got into the game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_of_Finland

"Tom of Finland (May 8, 1920 - November 7, 1991) (born Touko Laaksonen in
Kaarina, Finland) was a fetish artist notable for his stylized homoerotic
art and his influence on late twentieth century gay culture...

[...]

At 19, Laaksonen moved from his native Kaarina to Helsinki to attend art
school. It was here where he began to sketch his first homoerotic drawings,
based on images of masculine Finnish laborers he had seen from an early age.
Finland, however, soon became embroiled in the Winter War with the USSR, and
then formally involved in World War II, and Laaksonen was inducted into the
Finnish Army. He later attributed his fetishistic interest in men in uniform
to encounters with men in army uniform at this time.

[...]

A controversial theme in his drawings was the erotic treatment of men in
Nazi uniforms. They form a small part of his overall work, but the typically
flattering visual treatment of these characters has led some viewers to
infer a sympathy or affinity for Nazism, and they have been omitted from
most recent anthologies of his work. Later in his career Laaksonen disavowed
this work and was at pains to dissociate himself and his work from fascist
or racist ideologies. He also depicted a significant number of black men in
his drawings, with no overt racial or political message in the context in
which they appear; although they bear some commonality with racist
caricatures of the "hypersexual" black male, these traits are shared by
Laaksonen's white characters as well."

</>
Deeply Filled Mortician
2007-03-30 21:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Make credence recognised that on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:12:25 +0100,
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
Don't ever criticise me for making generalisations again!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--















































(yeah, yeah, I know, you're being ironic, fascetious etc.)
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-03-31 07:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Deeply Filled Mortician
Make credence recognised that on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:12:25 +0100,
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
Don't ever criticise me for making generalisations again!
It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Deeply Filled Mortician
2007-03-31 09:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Make credence recognised that on Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:52:37 +0100,
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Deeply Filled Mortician
Make credence recognised that on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:12:25 +0100,
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
I've never been, but the men are often gorgeous, judging by the ones
I've seen. (This is generally a Balkan trait in my experience.) I'd
go...
Too bad then you were not around in the Nazi days. I understand
some of them were handsome too.
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
Don't ever criticise me for making generalisations again!
It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.
:o)
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Lars
2007-03-31 22:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.
Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.

As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
shitless by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.

Sweden was ill equipped and in no position to take on the Nazis. So we
attempted to be neutral and stay out of the war.

It was not that the Nazis took the train to invade Norway. But when
the occupation was already a fait accompli the Nazis demanded free
passage through the neutral Sweden for their soldiers when they needed
to go back to Germany for holidays. The Swedes probably felt they did
not have much of a choice at the time. It is easy enough to say
afterwards that it should not have been accepted, and most of us
who were not there think it is a dark spot on our history.
Many Norwegian resistance troops were trained and equipped in Sweden.

With us not being occupied we did serve as a place of refuge for
practically all the jews from Norway and Denmark. Later on also from
Hungary and other countries (Wallenberg). Plus thousands of Finnish
children who came to stay for years in Sweden during the war.

The Finns unfortunately, ended up on the wrong side in the war. But
children are children and should not be held resonsible for tough
choices their parents have had to take when confronted by a formidable
foe.


Lars
Stockholm
tile
2007-04-01 06:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.
Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.
As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
shitless by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.
Sweden was ill equipped and in no position to take on the Nazis. So we
attempted to be neutral and stay out of the war.
It was not that the Nazis took the train to invade Norway. But when
the occupation was already a fait accompli the Nazis demanded free
passage through the neutral Sweden for their soldiers when they needed
to go back to Germany for holidays. The Swedes probably felt they did
not have much of a choice at the time. It is easy enough to say
afterwards that it should not have been accepted, and most of us
who were not there think it is a dark spot on our history.
Many Norwegian resistance troops were trained and equipped in Sweden.
With us not being occupied we did serve as a place of refuge for
practically all the jews from Norway and Denmark. Later on also from
Hungary and other countries (Wallenberg). Plus thousands of Finnish
children who came to stay for years in Sweden during the war.
The Finns unfortunately, ended up on the wrong side in the war. But
children are children and should not be held resonsible for tough
choices their parents have had to take when confronted by a formidable
foe.
Lars
Stockholm
Let me add that Ireland and Portugal / Spain were also enutral.
Ireland apparently was a place were crews of German submarines could take a
rest and buy fresh food,

Portugal and Spain, though neutral., were favoruing the German regime.

as to Yougoslavia. nobody talks about th etnical cleansing
that happened there after the war.
about 350.000 venetian dialect speaking italians were thrown out and lost
all their properties.. Statistics say about 20 to 30.000 civilians were
killed by yougoslav troops.

But in those times.. it was necessary to keep Yougoslavia
as a cushion state between the two blocks.
More recently. a part of Italy after the war was given to the British
administration ( Zone A ) and to the Yougoslav administration (Zone B)..

Zone A was given back to Italy a few years later.. Zone B was annexed to
Yougoslavia .. in spite of the peace treaty of Paris.
and again nobody did anything.

It took a lot of years and a new treaty ( Treaty of Osimo ) to settle this
violation of the peace treaty.

It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-04-01 08:47:20 UTC
Permalink
tile <***@libero.it> wrote:

[]
Post by tile
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,
It is also to note that you can't move on the Istrian coast in the
summer without bumping into holidaying Italians. Italian schools are the
most popular now in Istria, all street name signs on the peninsula are
bilingual (Croatian/Italian) and Italian is the de facto second language
in the region. The Italian historical relationship with Croatia and,
Istria in particular, is complex. Somehow, your one-sided portrayal of
it above doesn't suprise me.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
tile
2007-04-01 13:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
[]
Post by tile
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does not
want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for italians to
buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the properties that were
taken without indemnities,
It is also to note that you can't move on the Istrian coast in the
summer without bumping into holidaying Italians. Italian schools are the
most popular now in Istria, all street name signs on the peninsula are
bilingual (Croatian/Italian) and Italian is the de facto second language
in the region. The Italian historical relationship with Croatia and,
Istria in particular, is complex. Somehow, your one-sided portrayal of
it above doesn't suprise me.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
well.. of course..
because of the Peace treaty of Paris.,it was compulsory to protect the
minorities.
So in Istria it was compulsory to have bilingual names and so on. (see tha
in Italy you have bilingual schools and bilingual names near the Slovenian
border.. )
Pity that only about 20.000 venetian dialect speaking Italians remained in
Yougoslavia after the war.

as to Craotia.: Istria and Dalmatia.(coast )
both of them belonged to thew Republic of Venice till the Republic of
venice was conquered by napoleon and SIMPLY sold to Austria. (treaty of
Campoformido )
The official language in these parts was always.. Venetian dialect..
the geografical maps had names ONLY in venetian dialect

the offcial language of the Austrian navy was always Venetian dialect.. The
majority of Istrian inhabitants was Venetian.. and the main towns of the
dalmatian coast were in a great majority inhabited by Venetian speaking
people.
Pls note we are talking about people who had been there for hundreds of
years. not invaders or occupying people. Croatians had never been there..
they were the cheap labour force used by venetians..

that said.. it is a fact that after the Peace treaty of Paris 350.000
Venetian dialect speaking people had to leave the coutnry leaving behind
everything..
between 20.000 to 30.000 civilians were killed for almost no reason.
This year is has been decided to make in Italy a special day as Day of
Remembrance..
to rember those days when speaking an italian dialect was a good enough
reason to be killed.
there was an Irate reaction of the Croatian Prime Minsiter..
again. it is to note that till now it is forbidden for Italians to buy
property in Croatia. ( but not for Austrians and germans )
and again till now the Croatian Government has refused to pay any money as
an indemnity to those people who were obliged to leave if they wanted to
save thier lives.

we are talking about facts. and not about opinions.
I think nobody will ever show that the majority of people living in istria
was not Venetian dialect speaking..
and so were most of the people living in the major towns of Dalmatia. we are
talking for instance of
Fiume
Spalato
Zara
Ragusa..
Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the end
of the war.

so. I find it at least too simple to say that Serbians were or are bad.
Yougoslavia was allowed to make etnichal cleansings for political reasons..
and Croatia itself committed many muirders agains muslim minorities. jsu
recently enoug.
Let me add. for example. that the bridge of Mostar was destroyed by Croatian
only because it was asymbol of Muslim occupation..
a very funny thing.. Croatia has made an issue of stamps
to celebrate Famous Croatians..
among many people who are now turning in their Tombs as they were
considered Croatians.. there is also marco polo.. who according to the
legend was born in Curzola
( Now Korcula in Croatia.. )
Or can you say that marco Polo was Croatian ??
Sanja
2007-04-01 17:51:02 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
as to Craotia.: Istria and Dalmatia.(coast )
both of them belonged to thew Republic of Venice till the Republic of
venice was conquered by napoleon and SIMPLY sold to Austria. (treaty of
Campoformido )
The official language in these parts was always.. Venetian dialect..
the geografical maps had names ONLY in venetian dialect
the offcial language of the Austrian navy was always Venetian dialect..
The majority of Istrian inhabitants was Venetian.. and the main towns of
the dalmatian coast were in a great majority inhabited by Venetian
speaking people.
Pls note we are talking about people who had been there for hundreds of
years. not invaders or occupying people. Croatians had never been there..
they were the cheap labour force used by venetians..
You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast of Dalmatia
before the Venetians invaded it. And that Italian (venetian dialect),
Croatian and Latin coexisted for centuries. You should also note the way
they treated the land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied the land just as
Germans have occupied, say, Poland in 1939.
Post by tile
that said.. it is a fact that after the Peace treaty of Paris 350.000
Venetian dialect speaking people had to leave the coutnry leaving behind
everything..
between 20.000 to 30.000 civilians were killed for almost no reason.
That is unfotunately true. Peace treaties and politics don't give a damn
about the people and because of some arrangements made in Paris and London a
lot of people had lost their homes. Besides that, partisans killed a number
of Italian speaking inhabitants of Istria and Slovenia.
Post by tile
This year is has been decided to make in Italy a special day as Day of
Remembrance..
to rember those days when speaking an italian dialect was a good enough
reason to be killed.
there was an Irate reaction of the Croatian Prime Minsiter..
The problem is that Italian fascist politics that began in the 1920-ies led
to murders of non-Italians in the lands they occupied, people were forced to
speak Italian and to change their names. That situation lasted for more than
20 years and after the capitulation of Italy in 1943 and the end of WW2 in
1945 partisans killed Italians out of retribution.
Post by tile
Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the
end of the war.
Yeah right. Take Fiume (present-day Rijeka) for instance. It's first
mentioned name in history is Rika (which is a cakavian dialect of Croatian
language and means Rijeka). Venetians occupied Fiume in the 16th century
(after they burned the city down and robbed and demolished anything they
could) and that's when Italian term Fiume (which means River and is a
translation of the Croatian Rijeka) was introduced.
Post by tile
so. I find it at least too simple to say that Serbians were or are bad.
Yougoslavia was allowed to make etnichal cleansings for political
reasons.. and Croatia itself committed many muirders agains muslim
minorities. jsu recently enoug.
Croatia didn't make ethnic cleansing of muslim minority. During the war in
Croatia muslim minority was siding with Croatians. However, after Croatia in
1995 regained territories occupied by Serbs in 1991 there have been a number
of killings of Serbs that remained on that teritory.

I live in Rijeka and I know a thing or two about the history of my city and
my region. You shouldn't be so narrow-minded because your shauvinist
attitudes won't get you anywhere. From my personal experience I know that
Rijeka and Istria are multicultural regions and a lot of people that inhabit
it are of mixed origin. So I as being part Italian, part Croatian and part
Slovenian can't be partial as you are because of your superficial knowledge
of the subject. You should take things with a pinch of salt and try to see
the whole picture. A lot of wrong has been done in this region. I personally
find all crimes equally repulsive and I condemn both Italian crimes in the
Adriatic region as well as the crimes commited by the partisans after WW2 or
the crimes commited by Croats and Serbs during the 1990-ies. But when
talking about 20th century crimes in Europe, it would be only fair to admit
that the worst evil of the 20th century came from Italy and Germany and not
from the Slaves who were always playing supporting roles during history.
James Silverton
2007-04-01 18:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Sanja wrote on Sun, 1 Apr 2007 19:51:02 +0200:


S> You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast
S> of Dalmatia before the Venetians invaded it. And that
S> Italian (venetian dialect), Croatian and Latin coexisted
S> for centuries. You should also note the way they treated the
S> land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
S> be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied
S> the land just as Germans have occupied,

Lord, I'm going to have to attack you because your
great-great-great-......-grandfather said a rude word to my
great-great-great-......-grandmother ! Forget it please, I am
not responsible for my ancestors nor you for yours.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not
David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-04-01 18:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Silverton
S> You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast
S> of Dalmatia before the Venetians invaded it. And that
S> Italian (venetian dialect), Croatian and Latin coexisted
S> for centuries. You should also note the way they treated the
S> land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast and
S> be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied
S> the land just as Germans have occupied,
Lord, I'm going to have to attack you because your
great-great-great-......-grandfather said a rude word to my
great-great-great-......-grandmother ! Forget it please, I am
not responsible for my ancestors nor you for yours.
Which reminds me about what I wrote regarding glasshouses...
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Sanja
2007-04-01 21:16:34 UTC
Permalink
"James Silverton"
Post by James Silverton
Lord, I'm going to have to attack you because your
great-great-great-......-grandfather said a rude word to my
great-great-great-......-grandmother ! Forget it please, I am not
responsible for my ancestors nor you for yours.
My point exactly. But there are people who live in history and whether they
misinterpret history or not it's the same shit and the same pointless
discussion. There's no nation devoid of mistakes or crimes from the past so
it's pointeless to discuss who made more mistakes to begin with. :)
(although I had to react to some statements that were just not true).
tile
2007-04-01 19:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanja
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
as to Craotia.: Istria and Dalmatia.(coast )
both of them belonged to thew Republic of Venice till the Republic of
venice was conquered by napoleon and SIMPLY sold to Austria. (treaty of
Campoformido )
The official language in these parts was always.. Venetian dialect..
the geografical maps had names ONLY in venetian dialect
the offcial language of the Austrian navy was always Venetian dialect..
The majority of Istrian inhabitants was Venetian.. and the main towns of
the dalmatian coast were in a great majority inhabited by Venetian
speaking people.
Pls note we are talking about people who had been there for hundreds of
years. not invaders or occupying people. Croatians had never been there..
they were the cheap labour force used by venetians..
You should bear in mind that Croatians inhabited the coast of Dalmatia
before the Venetians invaded it. And that Italian (venetian dialect),
Croatian and Latin coexisted for centuries. You should also note the way
they treated the land and the native inhabitants of the Dalamatian coast
and be aware of the fact that they were intruders who occupied the land
just as Germans have occupied, say, Poland in 1939.
Post by tile
that said.. it is a fact that after the Peace treaty of Paris 350.000
Venetian dialect speaking people had to leave the coutnry leaving behind
everything..
between 20.000 to 30.000 civilians were killed for almost no reason.
That is unfotunately true. Peace treaties and politics don't give a damn
about the people and because of some arrangements made in Paris and London
a lot of people had lost their homes. Besides that, partisans killed a
number of Italian speaking inhabitants of Istria and Slovenia.
Post by tile
This year is has been decided to make in Italy a special day as Day of
Remembrance..
to rember those days when speaking an italian dialect was a good enough
reason to be killed.
there was an Irate reaction of the Croatian Prime Minsiter..
The problem is that Italian fascist politics that began in the 1920-ies
led to murders of non-Italians in the lands they occupied, people were
forced to speak Italian and to change their names. That situation lasted
for more than 20 years and after the capitulation of Italy in 1943 and the
end of WW2 in 1945 partisans killed Italians out of retribution.
Post by tile
Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the
end of the war.
Yeah right. Take Fiume (present-day Rijeka) for instance. It's first
mentioned name in history is Rika (which is a cakavian dialect of Croatian
language and means Rijeka). Venetians occupied Fiume in the 16th century
(after they burned the city down and robbed and demolished anything they
could) and that's when Italian term Fiume (which means River and is a
translation of the Croatian Rijeka) was introduced.
Post by tile
so. I find it at least too simple to say that Serbians were or are bad.
Yougoslavia was allowed to make etnichal cleansings for political
reasons.. and Croatia itself committed many muirders agains muslim
minorities. jsu recently enoug.
Croatia didn't make ethnic cleansing of muslim minority. During the war in
Croatia muslim minority was siding with Croatians. However, after Croatia
in 1995 regained territories occupied by Serbs in 1991 there have been a
number of killings of Serbs that remained on that teritory.
I live in Rijeka and I know a thing or two about the history of my city
and my region. You shouldn't be so narrow-minded because your shauvinist
attitudes won't get you anywhere. From my personal experience I know that
Rijeka and Istria are multicultural regions and a lot of people that
inhabit it are of mixed origin. So I as being part Italian, part Croatian
and part Slovenian can't be partial as you are because of your superficial
knowledge of the subject. You should take things with a pinch of salt and
try to see the whole picture. A lot of wrong has been done in this region.
I personally find all crimes equally repulsive and I condemn both Italian
crimes in the Adriatic region as well as the crimes commited by the
partisans after WW2 or the crimes commited by Croats and Serbs during the
1990-ies. But when talking about 20th century crimes in Europe, it would
be only fair to admit that the worst evil of the 20th century came from
Italy and Germany and not from the Slaves who were always playing
supporting roles during history.
well. Croatia has just to recognize that they are willing to pay
indemnities to Italians. and allow them to buy properties.

then they will enter Europe and everything will be settled.
But pls do not try to deny that Istria has always been Italian speaking..
that peace treaties had been violated by the Yougoslan government.... and
this cannot be denied.
or don't you know about Zone A and Zone B ???
wasn't it a violation of peace treaty ?? ( besides.. Yougoslavia was not
one of thewinning countries.. )

as italy was not in any position to oppose those treaties
infringements.. we just want people to know who did what
And pls do not deny that Croatian destroyed the bridge of Mostar for no
reason at all.
Pls do not deny that all registeres have been destroyed by Yougosloav
authoties.. exactly to avoid knowing how many italian speaking people lived
before the war in the towns they occupied.

and pls clarify that most of the crimes committed agains civilians were
AFTER the second world war. in fact between 1945 and 1948. ( yes we are
talking about 1948.. )
Slovenia has given a list of civilians that were killed AFTER the war.
apologized and paid indemnities.
and Slovenia is now part of Europe. ( apparently about 1200 civilians were
killed AFTER the war in the zone now occupied by Slovenia)
and pls tell me since when Italian speaking people were granted to have
their own Political party. their own schools. and pls clarify that Italian
speaking people were obliged in any case to give up their citizenship and
take croatian citizenship by force.

and pls tell me who was in Istria and Dalmazia Before the venetians occupied
it.
and give me example of Croatian names of towns in Istria.. before the
Yougoslav occupation.

besides.. it is in the eyes of everybody how the most known towns have
venetian style in the monuments.
so. Venetians did not destroy.. but build

the town of Ragusa ( Or Dubrovnik ) is an example..

In any case. it is finally time to settle after more tha 50 years these
things..
It is Yr Government who does not want.
they even are refusing people WHO WANT TO BUY BACK their own properties to
do it.
and strangely enough. Germans and Austrians are allowed. ( or German nazi
troops were not killing anybody in Croatia DURING the war ?? )
Soooo.. acccept the European rules. pay indemnities.
and you are welcome.
But call things their own names.
Facts are facts. treaties are treaties.. opinions are opinions.
Carole Allen
2007-04-01 20:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tile
and pls tell me who was in Istria and Dalmazia Before the venetians occupied
it.
In 4th C BC the Greeks referred to the Jadasinei living in what is now
Zadar. That predates Roman colonization. In fact, that predates
Venice.
Sanja
2007-04-01 22:36:15 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
But pls do not try to deny that Istria has always been Italian speaking..
Are you on purpose denying the fact that both Croatian, Italian and
Istroromanian have been spoken in Istria?
Post by tile
And pls do not deny that Croatian destroyed the bridge of Mostar for no
reason at all.
Your question implies that it's ok to destroy a masterpiece of architecture
if there's a good reason:-) There is never a reason good enough to destroy
anything, especially a monument under UNESCO protection. There are people on
trial in Haague for that.
Post by tile
Pls do not deny that all registeres have been destroyed by Yougosloav
authoties.. exactly to avoid knowing how many italian speaking people
lived before the war in the towns they occupied.
I couldn't deny that. Communist Yugoslav army did a lot of bad things and
almost all of the ihnabitants of Istria and Kvarner whether they were
Italian, Croatian or Slovenian speaking were not happy when they came to
liberate them. In my city (Rijeka), for example, there has been a strong
movement seeking for autonomy. Citizens of Rijeka (Croatian, Italian,
Hungarian, Austrian, Slovenian) didn't want both Italy or Yugoslavia to rule
them. They were seeking for their right to be autonomous, the city had been
an independent city-state for a couple of years (US president Wilson was
among the greatest advocates of the city's independence).
Post by tile
and pls clarify that most of the crimes committed agains civilians were
AFTER the second world war.
Unfortunately, I can't give you the figures because no one knows them yet.


in fact between 1945 and 1948. ( yes we are
Post by tile
talking about 1948.. )
Slovenia has given a list of civilians that were killed AFTER the war.
apologized and paid indemnities.
Has Italy apologised to Croatia and Slovenia yet?
Or Ethiopia and Albania?
I mean, I'm pro apologies, paying reparations and stuff but I'm also like
before you accuse sb else, take a look at yourself.
These things are pointless to discuss but you keep making me reply because
you're view on things is quite partial.
Post by tile
and pls tell me since when Italian speaking people were granted to have
their own Political party. their own schools. and pls clarify that
Italian speaking people were obliged in any case to give up their
citizenship and take croatian citizenship by force.
I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't know about Slovenia but I know
about Croatia. Don't know why you think that Italian minority doesn't have
rights in Croatia because they have their representatives in parliament,
they can have their political parties, all of the institutions and street
names in Istria are bilingual, in Rijeka there is a national theatre house
which incorporates Italian Drama, there are a number of Italian associations
and cultural organizations, in Rijeka there is Edit which is publishing
company sponsored by the Italian government that publishes books in Italian,
there are daily newspapers in Italian La voce del popolo, there are Italian
kindergartens, 2 Italian elementary schools and Italian grammar school in
Rijeka ... Not one Italian in Rijeka or Istria is feeling segregated, and I
know because I socialise with them on daily basis.
BTW, I don't know what you mean by "Italian speaking people were obliged in
any case to give up their citizenship and take croatian citizenship by
force." If you're reffering to the after WW2 period that doens't make sense
because Croatia as a state didn't exist until 1990 so I don't understand how
anyone could have got Coatian citizenship back then?? If you're reffering to
present-day situation, Italian government has enabled all the members of the
Italian minority in Croatia to have Italian citizenship so they have both
Croatian and Italian citizenship.
Post by tile
and pls tell me who was in Istria and Dalmazia Before the venetians
occupied it.
Have you ever heard of the Illyric tribe Histri? the Venetians occupied
Istria in the 16th century. Before them Istria was in hands of the Roman
Empire for a while, then in hands of different dukes, Habsburg family,
Napoleon ... After the WW1 Istria got in hands of Italy for the first time
in history and yet you believe it has always been Italian. I think Austria
should claim right on Istria also because Habsburg family possessed it in
history. Or France bearing in mind that Napoleon conquered it too. They have
the same right on Istria as anyone else. :-)
Post by tile
Venetians did not destroy.. but build
the town of Ragusa ( Or Dubrovnik ) is an example..
Dubrovnik was the only independent city-state (The Republic of Dubrovnik) in
the Mediterranean until the 19th century when Napoleon conquered it. It
managed to balance between Osman empire and Venetians (Venetians possessed
Dubrovnik for about 150 years since the beginning of the 13th century up
until the middle of the 14th century) having a support from Spain and
Venetians do not play any role in buliding the city. Don't know where you
got that from.
Carole Allen
2007-04-01 19:06:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by tile
we are talking about facts. and not about opinions.
I think nobody will ever show that the majority of people living in istria
was not Venetian dialect speaking..
and so were most of the people living in the major towns of Dalmatia. we are
talking for instance of
Fiume
Spalato
Zara
Ragusa..
Many Coratian names were invented. they simply did not exist before the end
of the war.
Boy, that would sure surprise my ggg+ parents who lived high in the
Velebits on the Dalmatian coast above Tribanj-Kruscica, and then (and
now) in Zara (now Zadar) - the ones with Croatian surnames, the names
which existed centuries before WW1 and WW2, and which are reflected in
old church records dating back to at least the 1700s..
Sanja
2007-04-01 16:57:01 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does
not want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for
italians to buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the
properties that were taken without indemnities,
That's not true. Italy and Croatia signed a treaty which guarantees Italians
they can buy property in Croatia and vice versa.
tile
2007-04-01 19:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanja
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
It is to note that Croatia finds it difficult to join Europe as it does
not want to accept European rules ( apparently it is forbidden for
italians to buy properties there ) and repay Italians of all the
properties that were taken without indemnities,
That's not true. Italy and Croatia signed a treaty which guarantees
Italians they can buy property in Croatia and vice versa.
well. apparently that has not ben settled. In fact Italy is denying its
permission to Croatia to enter Europe..
or are there other reasons ??
Sanja
2007-04-01 21:40:35 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
well. apparently that has not ben settled. In fact Italy is denying its
permission to Croatia to enter Europe..
or are there other reasons ??
It has been settled. Last year if I'm correct. And until that issue was
legally settled Italians were also able to buy properties in Croatia but not
as individuals (they would set up a firm and buy the property not as
individuals but as a firm which was completely legal or they would pay
someone with Croatian citizenship to buy the property in their name) Italy
is not denying permission to Croatia to enter the EU. Italy is just making
political pressure on Croatia since Italy is already a member and in a
position to blackmail other would-be members. Italy was making the same
pressure on Slovenia before Slovenia entered the EU so it's not anything
new.
Another thing I've noticed is that governments and political parties of all
three neighbouring countries are producing "problems" when election
campaigns are taking place in either one of the 3 countries. And a large
number of people in those countries falls for that repeatedly.
tile
2007-04-02 05:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanja
"tile" wrote in message
Post by tile
well. apparently that has not ben settled. In fact Italy is denying its
permission to Croatia to enter Europe..
or are there other reasons ??
It has been settled. Last year if I'm correct. And until that issue was
legally settled Italians were also able to buy properties in Croatia but
not as individuals (they would set up a firm and buy the property not as
individuals but as a firm which was completely legal or they would pay
someone with Croatian citizenship to buy the property in their name) Italy
is not denying permission to Croatia to enter the EU. Italy is just making
political pressure on Croatia since Italy is already a member and in a
position to blackmail other would-be members. Italy was making the same
pressure on Slovenia before Slovenia entered the EU so it's not anything
new.
Another thing I've noticed is that governments and political parties of
all three neighbouring countries are producing "problems" when election
campaigns are taking place in either one of the 3 countries. And a large
number of people in those countries falls for that repeatedly.
so. you are making a lot of smoke
In Europe there is free movement of Capitals and people.
again. a croatian has the right to buy properties in Italy
A slovenian minority member has the right in Italy ( Protected zone ) to
speak only slovenian. Such rights have the germans of Trentino alto adige
and the french speaking people of Valle d'aosta. Do not tell me that Italian
speaking people in Croatia have the right to speak only italian. and that
all public offices MUST be bilingual. and all official documents MUST be
bilingual.
as to ragusa. everybody that has been there can vouch most of the
monuments are similar in style to Venezia.
In any case. I will have a look at Austrian statistics about the number of
people that were living in Istria and all the other coast towns. (
statistics dating as far back as 1918 )

you have spoken about different occupations of Istria and Dalmatia. but
never spoke about a Croatian state being there.. or am I not correct ??

In any case. again. Yr Government should pay. and it is settled. and respect
all the rules to join Europe.
why should Italy oppose to Croatia joining Europe if there were no grounds
??


we are not so natioanlist.. we like Europe..
and I hope Serbia will join Europe very soon.

when I will have a right to buy property in Croatia. I will call my property
Casa Italia and put a big Italian flag on it.

you have the right to do that in Italy if you want even now and if you
like. or put a Mongolain flag.
and still you have to expalin me why Croatian troops destroyed the bridge in
Mostar..
and why croatians consider marco polo an illustrious croatian.
so. pls. pay indemnities. accept the rules of Europe that have been accepted
by 27 countries and you are welcome.
But I guess Croatia has not the means to pay.. and many people will not like
that Italians come back.

I have an old aunt in Fiume. She did not leave as she was married with a man
from Bosna. She knows all the story
and she tells me how afraid she was to speak as she did not speak croatian
perfectly. ( she of course did no dare speaking italian )
and she also told me that most of the people living in Croatia now are not
native croatians. or is this a lie ??
Sanja
2007-04-02 10:15:40 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message

(cut)

This discussion with you makes no sense because I repeatedly give you the
facts and you still don't understand much
Why should I keep this conversation going when after I've written 2-3 times
that, for instrance, Italians as well as other EU citizens can legally buy
properties in Croatia you still ignore that and continue saying that they
can't. It's not my responsibility to educate you. Study history, study the
laws if you're so interested, study politics instead of being the victim of
it. Maybe then you'll know more and you'll be able to participate in
meaningful discussions.
Bye.
tile
2007-04-02 10:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanja
"tile" wrote in message
(cut)
This discussion with you makes no sense because I repeatedly give you the
facts and you still don't understand much
Why should I keep this conversation going when after I've written 2-3
times that, for instrance, Italians as well as other EU citizens can
legally buy properties in Croatia you still ignore that and continue
saying that they can't. It's not my responsibility to educate you. Study
history, study the laws if you're so interested, study politics instead of
being the victim of it. Maybe then you'll know more and you'll be able to
participate in meaningful discussions.
Bye.
the problem is that I have to avoid Croatian books
You did not explain still what happened with the B zone..
what happened with the Mostar bridge..
and why a private person has to buy something through a company grounded in
Croatia. ( even if you do not belong to EU you can buy property here without
any problem..and so in any of the 27 european countries)

Again. go and read statistics.. made by the Austrian Empire in 1918. ( or is
Austria not to be believed ??) and you will see in what percentage
Italians and Croatian
speaking people were living in 1918 in Istria and Dalamazia.

sorry. you have to read a lot of books.. but not Croatian books. ( do books
in croatian exist of those times ??)
and stop with yr nationalism.
Prepare to pay.. or you will not enter Europe.
sorry. But you have to pay.
and when you have to pay. it means that you have done something wrong and
that you will have to pay for it.
sorry again.
and pls show me that all official documents in istria are made in two
languages. and that people working in official places MUST have
proficiency in two languages
That is how we mean to protect minorities in Italy..
sorry again. but yr idea idea of protecting minorities is quite different
from mine.
Maybe for you protecting minorities means TOLERATING them. provided that
they do not ask too much.
Sanja
2007-04-02 11:26:56 UTC
Permalink
"tile" wrote in message

(cut)

Are you an idiot or you're just slow? :)
Anyone who has read my posts if he's litterate enough is able to comprehend
what I was saying.
I'm 1/3rd Italian and I live in a city with 3% of Italian minority. I
participate in all of their activities and yet you keep telling me that
Italians have no rights in Croatia.
You don't know a thing on the subject because if you'd new you'd know the
history of the eastern part of Adriatic and would't make such claims as
those that Venetians were indigenous inhabitants of Dalmatia, that Dubrovnik
was built by them etc. If you think that Italian or Croatian historians are
partial, go read books published in English, French or German. Do whatever
but educate yourself before you make your claims.
Have you even ever been to Istria or Rijeka? If you were, you'd know that in
Istria, due to the rights given to them by the Croatian laws, all the
streets in Istrian town are bilingual, all the institutions in Istria are
bilingual (I've already listed nursery, primary and grammar schools in
Italian). Ask any of the Italians in this region how do they feel about
their status (since I'm only 1/3 of Italian origin maybe I'm not Italian
enough for you so go ask sb else). Or, if you can afford it (you probably
can't and that's maybe the reason of your frustration), go and buy a
property in Istria, there's no law to stop you. I don't see Austrians or
Hungarians complaining. And they actually made my city flourish during the
19th century while Italian rule between the 2 wars made the city's economy
to collapse. And yet they don't claim someone stole Pula or Rijeka from
them. Get your act together, it's not in European fashion to be such a bigot
and such a scauvinist and to sulk because your army wasn't strong enough to
conquer as much territiory as you would like.
And don't tell me about minorities because I've been a minority all of my
life and I can tell a scauvinist and a nationalist when I see one. And
you're a fine example.
tile
2007-04-02 14:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sanja
"tile" wrote in message
(cut)
Are you an idiot or you're just slow? :)
Anyone who has read my posts if he's litterate enough is able to
comprehend what I was saying.
I'm 1/3rd Italian and I live in a city with 3% of Italian minority. I
participate in all of their activities and yet you keep telling me that
Italians have no rights in Croatia.
You don't know a thing on the subject because if you'd new you'd know the
history of the eastern part of Adriatic and would't make such claims as
those that Venetians were indigenous inhabitants of Dalmatia, that
Dubrovnik was built by them etc. If you think that Italian or Croatian
historians are partial, go read books published in English, French or
German. Do whatever but educate yourself before you make your claims.
Have you even ever been to Istria or Rijeka? If you were, you'd know that
in Istria, due to the rights given to them by the Croatian laws, all the
streets in Istrian town are bilingual, all the institutions in Istria are
bilingual (I've already listed nursery, primary and grammar schools in
Italian). Ask any of the Italians in this region how do they feel about
their status (since I'm only 1/3 of Italian origin maybe I'm not Italian
enough for you so go ask sb else). Or, if you can afford it (you probably
can't and that's maybe the reason of your frustration), go and buy a
property in Istria, there's no law to stop you. I don't see Austrians or
Hungarians complaining. And they actually made my city flourish during the
19th century while Italian rule between the 2 wars made the city's economy
to collapse. And yet they don't claim someone stole Pula or Rijeka from
them. Get your act together, it's not in European fashion to be such a
bigot and such a scauvinist and to sulk because your army wasn't strong
enough to conquer as much territiory as you would like.
And don't tell me about minorities because I've been a minority all of my
life and I can tell a scauvinist and a nationalist when I see one. And
you're a fine example.
I am sorry
but I do not speak with people that are too blind to see the truth.

I was just checking about the people living in istria and Dalmatia before
the second world war and now.

so.. if you do not know. go and read these statistics

as to the situation of Italy and Croatia now..
it takes a lot of phantasy to say that Croatia is better off than Italy

you have a currency that might be good to play monopoly
an economical situation very near to bankruptcy
very few modern roads and railways.

again. you did not answer my questions about zone A and Zone B.
as to war. all wars are a mistake. but Yougoslavia without the help of
demmocratic countries could not possibly have won any war.
In any case. it has been under a regime like Tito's for enough years... it
is in the eyes of everybody the result of his regime.
Now that Yougoslavia after the fall of the wall of Berlin was not
interesting anymore for anybody.. it simply disappeared from the geography
giving life to a few states whose importance is not bigger than San marino's
(maybe San marino is more important )

Live and fill yr mouth with yr nationalism.
I am still waiting for when Croatia will come and beg Italy to accept
indemnities.. just to enter Europe from the back door.
Just think that Ruimania and Bulgaria are now in Europe. and see how
important Croatia is.
end.

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
2007-04-01 08:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lars
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Post by David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
Your country would know. You remember, the one that let the Nazi trains
through to Norway?
It wasn't a generalisation- it was a statement of fact. I don't blame
all Swedes for it. Just Lars.
Well, I wasn't born at the time so I will not take any blame for it.
As for my forefathers; I have understood that they were mostly scared
shitless by the Nazis, quite understandably so, I think.
Whatever. Your excusing Sweden's collective world war 2 cowardice to one
side, I don't 'blame' Swedes for anything- but you were the one bringing
nazis into this, and telling people not to visit Serbia. People in glass
houses shouldn't throw stones, and Europe is littered with
conservatories...
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
bob
2007-03-30 00:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerald Oliver Swift
Post by sasha
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our websitewww.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
Your website looks very good - good luck with your new venture. Certainly
makes a refreshing change from all the usual overseas walking destinations.
I was in Serbia and Montenegro last October. Had a fantastic time in both
countries. Really friendly people.
Hope your venture does really well.
Kindest regards
Gerry
I travelled to Serbia in 2005 with 32 high school students from Nova
Scotia Canada. The expedition was to attend a youth-driven conference
on peaceful conflict resolution sponsored by Peaceful Schools
International.

The reasoning behind doing this in Serbia is that people like some of
the followup posters in this thread consider that country to be "the
Bully of the Balkans", the most ridiculous place to hold a peace
conference, and a lost cause.

What happened is that we connected with several schools from Backa
Palanka to Nis and in each one there was an overwhelming desire to
work in the school toteach children positive and creative conflict
resolution.

The teachers, parents and students were hungry for it. The average
Serb is in survival mode now, earning pittance and just trying to live
a normal life. We were treated like royalty. They were so happy to
have some folks chose to come see them for this project; to treat them
as they really are, normal average people with the same wants and
needs as us.

The war crimes were atrocicious, but they were the product of a regime
and an army, not of the general population.

Serbia is an amazing place to go, full of rich culture and resilient
people hungry for visitors. Good luck with your venture.

Cheers,
John
tile
2007-03-30 05:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by sasha
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our website
www.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
we are in Serbia about every 2 or 3 months for business
and we never had problems.
There is only a lack of money and of jobs. even if recently the economical
situation is bettereing from day to day.
Most of the Serbians were against the Milosevic regime. and still have to
pay for it.
I guess Serbia qualifies to join Europe more than Rumania and Bulgaria did.
James Silverton
2007-03-30 12:01:48 UTC
Permalink
tile wrote on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 05:52:54 GMT:


t> we are in Serbia about every 2 or 3 months for business
t> and we never had problems.
t> There is only a lack of money and of jobs. even if recently
t> the economical situation is bettereing from day to day.
t> Most of the Serbians were against the Milosevic regime. and
t> still have to pay for it.

Just like most of the Austrians were opposed to Hitler despite
extant movies and photographs of cheering crowds welcoming the
German troops in 1938.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not
Deeply Filled Mortician
2007-03-30 21:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Make credence recognised that on Fri, 30 Mar 2007 08:01:48 -0400,
Post by James Silverton
t> we are in Serbia about every 2 or 3 months for business
t> and we never had problems.
t> There is only a lack of money and of jobs. even if recently
t> the economical situation is bettereing from day to day.
t> Most of the Serbians were against the Milosevic regime. and
t> still have to pay for it.
Just like most of the Austrians were opposed to Hitler despite
extant movies and photographs of cheering crowds welcoming the
German troops in 1938.
Where they passively opposed, or actively trying to do something about
it?
--
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DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
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Keith Anderson
2007-03-30 13:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by tile
Post by sasha
We're a British family living in Serbia. We've just set up a walking
holidays business and would really appreciate any feedback you could
give us on our website and also on the whole idea of coming to Serbia
on holiday. For example, Do you think people would be reluctant to
come to Serbia because of preconceived ideas about the country? We
would appreciate your views. Please look at our website
www.walkingserbia.com
and tell us what you think!! thanks Tish and Sasha
we are in Serbia about every 2 or 3 months for business
and we never had problems.
There is only a lack of money and of jobs. even if recently the economical
situation is bettereing from day to day.
Most of the Serbians were against the Milosevic regime. and still have to
pay for it.
I guess Serbia qualifies to join Europe more than Rumania and Bulgaria did.
I recently read "Through the Embers of Chaos" by Dervla Murphy - an
account of vists to the Balkans in the early 2000s.

Whilst the book makes no attempt to cover up Serbian brutality and
genocide, it also shows that Croats massacred Serbs, and that NATO is
rather fouling things up in Kosovo. The book is a lament for
Jugoslavia (as was), and for me it was worth reading as a challenge to
the rather simplistic "Serbs bad, everyone ese good" view.

Review (scroll down):

http://www.encompassculture.com/results/?qs=Dervla%20Murphy
Keith, Bristol, UK
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